Madhav Gadgil is a colossus when it comes to works on ecology and related sciences. Gadgil's report on Western Ghats, detailing measures needed for conservation of the fragile region rich in biodiversity, however, divided the polity, laity and arraigned some of the most influential voices against him.
While those who stand for the cause of the green politics found a saviour in Gadgil, he has been crucified by a section of politicians, laity, religious heads and business classes for the stiff measures proposed in the report for conservation. The 74-year-old Padma Bhushan winner, however, believes there were huge distortions and false propaganda against the report. Excerpts from a conversation with Onmanorama.
It is clear that the Congress and the CPM were not in favour of your report on the protection of western ghats and the BJP had a different stance before and after the 2014 general elections. There seems to be no move in favour of your report?
It is clear that during those days (time of campaigning) politicians wanted to appeal to the society. In the first speech that Narendra Modi made, he said we will make development a people's movement. But today development has become a movement of wealth. So the BJP state unit is also being asked not to speak about making development a people's movement. We talked about it, we won the election, now forget it. That seems to be the attitude.
Who do you blame for the ill fate of your report?
The whole socio-political and economic system is something that should be blamed. We were not able to translate into action the ideas of the people who fought for freedom and later of those who created the constitution. We have not been able to put them in practice because of the whole range of divisions in society and economic disparity.
About our report, if you want to blame someone you can blame those who take advantage of these divisions. But it's a widespread thing. There is no point in pointing fingers at any particular person or group.
You mentioned divisions in society. Do you think such divisions have become lesser compared to earlier days?
Today, I think both economic divisions and caste disparities are greater than ever before. I guess Mrs Gandhi added to the constitution that India is a socialist republic but nothing genuine along that line has been accomplished. When I was a child, my father kept on insisting that you don't belong to any caste. Today a person comes to my house for a census and without giving me chance records some caste as mine, taking it for granted. These caste-based divisions have not gone but increased.
When it comes to conservation of the environment, political parties seem to be not so honest?
Not so honest is a very mild statement. In English, there is a saying – honour among thieves. There is honour among thieves. That you are in power and you loot. Then the next set of thieves come and they should not prosecute you.
One critic said your report suggested conservation at the cost of the people of Western Ghats. For example, you suggested alternate housing for those in the Western Ghats while no such restrictions seemed to be applicable for those in the other parts of the country.
There are two issues here. We did not say that these were the restrictions which should be put. We said these are suggestions to start a discussion. The decisions should be taken through a democratic process. There is an explicit statement in the report that we do not believe that the so-called experts or the politicians should be making the decisions on their own and that the job of the experts is to put facts and alternatives before the people and let people understand them and make decisions.
In Maharashtra, the sand mafia is actually killing local people who protest. We have never said that the people of the Western Ghats should be frugal. See the western ghats is an arbitrary division. We had been asked to only deal with it. But these principles are applicable to other parts of the country also.
Despite massive awareness drives, even the highly educated people seem to be not so sensitive about environmental issues. Why do many of us find it difficult to tread a different path?
There are very powerful people promoting more and more consumerism and a whole range of goods and services. I say something and some people may be attracted to it. But when day in and out for instance, a person like Amitabh Bachan speak for a product it has a tremendous impact.
Then there is also all these glorification of military conflicts. It's unfortunate that since 1947, there is this conflict between India and Pakistan. There is a very strong feeling that the other party is entirely to be blamed and that we should be continuously at each other's throat. This is widely accepted by the people of both the countries. That means we have to put in so much resources to these military equipment. And the advantage is taken by Americans. They will talk one thing but they will be very happy to sell arms to both the countries.
There are these military conflicts as well as the drive towards consumerism. The intensification of resource use in any field is being promoted on such a massive scale. So for anyone to keep away from these is a difficult task.
When I was in school, my family was among the better off families and the same is the case with my grand children also. But when I was a kid, the medium was Marathi and the fees was affordable to all. But for my grandchildren there is no chance to come into contact with the poor children. And we are talking about the so-called aspirational class who identify themselves with the people of the US than the people in the rest of India.
On branding environmentalists as anti-development
It's very easy to broad brush people. It's the same case with caste system. Mahatma Gandhi was murdered. Though as I said my father had disowned caste, Nathuram Godse, if I were to accept caste, belonged to my caste. And I have been to places where people say you are among the people who murdered Mahatma Gandhi. If someone can make such a statement, it means anything can be talked about anyone.
The governments all over the world work for some vested interests. Unfortunately, the so called social experiments also ended up being completely sabotaged. Again in the eastern Europe, in the communist governments also small groups gripped power and they did not serve broader social interests.
In China also the same kind of trends were seen. One distinguished economist said in the US it's supposed to be one person one vote, but it's today one dollar one vote. In India it could be one rupee one vote. And those who use these rupee votes will use all their tools to suppress the voice of those who stand against them. And this branding is only one tool. Same is the case with branding people as anti-national also. Religions also have always sided with those in power.
State polls are round the corner, but nobody speaks seriously on environmental issues
Be it the CPM or BJP or Congress, they are all in a sense supporting the same vested interests. They use different strategies to attract votes. But nobody is thinking of attracting votes by supporting different interests. I don't know how the experiment of AAP is going on in Delhi. Nevertheless AAP did try and certainly succeeded to some extend in projecting some other interests and capturing the voters' imagination. But I don't know how they are going to perform and it has very limited space. So it's not that there is no political party projecting these other interests. Through journalists also, misinformation is being projected.
Any hope about your report
Not that immediately. But there are long-term trends in the world which are in support of our approach. For example, economists say human beings never have broad interests but only have their own narrow individual interests. Today in the world economy, software is a major sector. But then there is this open free software which is not for profit. Wikileaks is one such example. Such things can happen. People in power are very worried about such things.
Wikipedia project
Truly, social media are becoming important. And we are working on a project using the possibilities of Wikipedia to help people who suffer from similar environmental issue join together. Unfortunately, press reports and RTI replies on environmental issues remain scattered. I think these sort of bits of information should be brought together. The victims of miseries are scattered but gainers are a consolidated group.
We can help the victims through Wikipedia by consolidating reports on similar issues using Wiki data. (He cites the example of largescale fish mortality which is seen in various parts of the country but not looked upon with due seriousness). Even 10 years ago you could not have thought about this. As a scientist it's our duty to create sound knowledge and I think this is one way of doing that.
On debates over the Western Ghats Ecology Expert Panel-2010 (WGEEP) report
Certainly there were many points of view and deliberate distortions also. I never expected that there will be such vigorous debates on the report. I found it very healthy that many issues surfaced. It was indeed educating for me.
Kerala has had such many debates on environmental issues. I began participating in such debates some 30 years ago during the Silent Valley struggle. I remember the people's parliament held in Thrissur. It was new experience for me.
True. There were incredible distortions on the Western Ghats Ecology Expert Panel. I remember one meeting in Kasaragod where both people for and against participated in a debate. A gentleman stood up and said that we had strongly recommended that the tribal forest land act should not be opposed. In fact, it was completely against what we had said.
Don't you feel your efforts were wasted?
I don't think my efforts were underestimated. It was not a personal decision. My colleagues were also there. In our panel, all of us agreed that what we recommended were all based on the principles of democracy and constitution. Interestingly, time and again we were told that if we write such an honest report and make such proper recommendations they will not be implemented. A large number of wise people told me that we should write a report which will have a chance of being implemented.
But we told them that what we were saying is about that which should actually happen in the country as per our Constitution and the democratic set up. And they were saying there is no chance of that being implemented so we should make some recommendations which are completely improper. Later amazingly Dr Kasturirangan's report said local bodies should have no say in economic policy decisions. It is an attack on the state's constitution.
People were telling us to make that sort of recommendations. I told them that was not our business. Our duty was to say what's right and proper. I did not expect the report to be accepted. That's fine. But I was very happy that it evoked a lot of debate.